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#51 OFFLINE   Mizen

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Posted 22 February 2016 - 06:19 AM

the point on "vaguely similar" is the key.... with all other aspects of simulator development, you can reasonably aspire to hit a 90-99% level of accuracy. Pedals feel is already there, the very best wheels are getting close with only game physics and windows limitations holding them back,  tracks are laser scanned and spookily accurate, and game physics will keep getting better.

What you cannot get close to is simulating G force, it just beyond the laws of physics to do properly. So you can only ever build in "cues", which are hugely about interpretation as there isn't really a consensus on the best way to do it.  Better to save the money and concentrate on getting the things you can replicate right than try to do something that can never ever be close to real life is the alternative theory... which i totally get.
Aiming to collect all post-war Le Mans winners in scale 1:18. Even the gaps!

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#52 OFFLINE   Uzair

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Posted 22 February 2016 - 06:56 AM

You are very right, all other aspects can be simulated using good enough software (sim physics) and hardware (wheel and pedals)and 3D visuals running on sufficiently powerful CPU and GPU but true g-force experience can only be on the race track in the real deal.

I think I can best summarize the decision for sticking to a static seat vs motion rig this way: for a middle-class earner like me the $5000 USD price difference (and more, considering import duties and shipping charges to EU) of the Stage 4 over something like the Obutto R3Volution would be much rather be put towards real track action on go-karts. That price difference can buy 700 karting sessions! :)

Besides, I firmly believe that good VR kits such as Oculus Rift add 10X more to the immersion than a motion rig.

Edited by Uzair, 22 February 2016 - 06:58 AM.

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#53 OFFLINE   Mizen

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Posted 22 February 2016 - 07:08 AM

... more like $15k-$20k more for a stage 4, and even worst, it might not actually help one little bit, plus may be too noisy to use without waking the whole house and neighborhood!!

Like boats and supercars, better to know someone who has one and likes to share than spend your own money on it :)
Aiming to collect all post-war Le Mans winners in scale 1:18. Even the gaps!

#54 OFFLINE   Uzair

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Posted 22 February 2016 - 07:23 AM

Hahaa true, but sadly none of my friends own fast boats or supercars :giggle:

Your topic has helped me tremendously Keith - I was actually very serious about a Stage 4 but no longer. The only attraction was to provide a "fun" factor. I am aware that such rigs can actually hamper laptimes rather than help, due to the distracting movement. I can't think of a better sim experience than sitting in a Stage 4, wearing the Oculus Rift, getting the full immersive stereoscopic 3D + movement. However $20K is way beyond my budget for "fun" :)

Instead of the full motion I've heard of vibration thingies like SimVibe or Buttkicker. Would you recommend them?
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#55 OFFLINE   Mizen

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Posted 22 February 2016 - 07:41 AM

if you send me a PM can send you a lot of stuff i've written up in the past for people building their own simulators.

Tactile transducers (could be buttkickers,but other options) i *think* are much better, as if you have a good number of them (4-6) you are starting to add back one sensation accurately, rather than try and fake a sensation.   i.e. feeling through your arse!  Have a mail outstanding with a top sim developer which will hopefully ratify that.

in order of bang for your buck, these are the best things to invest on:

1. triple screens, not for wide angle view, but so you can set the right field of view, which helps with depth perception.  lag free 144 hx g-sync.  the rift is a long way away from being ready for sim racing, and has compromises also (can't see your components, or buttons!)
2. decent rig to get a proper consistent driving position.  I wouldnt go with the Obutto, just not built for high end components.  i have one and had to strenghen it a lot, and it still rattles and creaks
3. decent pedals. more important than a wheel.
4. a direct drive wheel. Anything below DD is a toy. If budget doesnt allow it, better to get an eBay G27 than a EUR800 fanatec.
Aiming to collect all post-war Le Mans winners in scale 1:18. Even the gaps!

#56 OFFLINE   Uzair

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Posted 22 February 2016 - 08:44 AM

Thanks man! I will go over the options and PM you my thoughts on building my rig.

And for your detailed and well-thought through reply, you get a :rock: badge :smile:
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#57 OFFLINE   Mizen

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 04:03 PM

Update on the "Mizen-Racing" project..  apologies for all the detail, but realising this is pretty much the only place i'm recording the whole journey as too many "experts" on the iRacing forums sure to offer their expertise, and too much detail on the costs for sharing with friends on facebook - so DiecastXchange gets the lot, and maybe i'll come back and read it all in a few years :)


Did my first test at Castle Combe on a gloriously sunny March 17th, and there were ups and downs, but overall - pretty good.

First the bad news:

- Could not get the data logger to play with the video logger. They're both from Race Technology, but whilst much more powerful than the "VBox solution" beloved of car magazines and track days, i think geared more toward professional teams with full time data engineers. Basically- it's a pain in the arse to install, needs another few hours fiddling with a laptop.

-  After spending £1,167 on two sets of slicks - found out that one of my spare wheels is buckled, so had to use only old tyres on the test.  Need a new wheel, but the manufacturer of my wheel has gone out of business.  I can get a lovely set of magnesium wheels as a replacement - £1,200 sir.  I am beginning to see why i was told "have a big contingency" when I was putting my season budget together....

-  Did not do homework on gear ratios. As i got used to the car, i started maxing the rev limited at a couple of places on track - silly mistake, one email could have prevented it.

-  Need to move seat belt mount points and also buy new belts to get them to work with a mandatory-for-2016 HANs device.   Left belt kept coming off HANs, which isn't so safe, and would prevent me from racing if scrutineers saw it.   Another £400 or so - see above re Motorsport being expensive..!

- Also need to fix foam to the cockpit, and invest in elbow and knee pads. Body was fixed firmly for the most part, legs and arms though took a beating, and were black and blue.  Driving was as physically tough as i was warned, but training in the gym and with bodnar wheel on my simulator helped a lot - and fitness wasn't an issue.

-  After 4 sessions getting faster, I started getting low fuel pressure warning light.  The dash and warning lights had played up earlier, so i came in, we checked for any obvious errors and tried again.  Same issue - so had to abort day with 2 sessions to go just when i was really starting to push on.   We initially thought it was due to excessive time on the rev limited, but now think more like a failed fuel pump.  Another £300. Motorsport is expen... you get it :)

Now the better news:

- The car is mega. Of course the acceleration is impressive, but the braking, cornering, agility... everything.. is just so much fun.  I was following and very quickly passing very high end 600bhp+ Evo racecar in my last session;  it be becomes so obvious why purpose built racecars are so much quicker than roadcars in those 5 minutes - he was braking frighteningly early as far as my car was concerned. And all that power doesn't help when i'm on the loud pedal 30 meters earlier.

- I can actually drive it.  After the first session, i was a bit in shock and wondering "what the hell have i done buying this". By the 4th 15 min session i was starting to think "how can i get around here quicker", not "how can i drive this car quicker" - important difference

- Laptimes.... a little surprising.  The series hasn't raced there for a long time, but the lap record for the class is 1:07.3.  That was a long time ago, with older cars, but faster tyres.  Race pace range i think would be between 1:06.5 - 1:08.5. I went from 1:27.5 in first session down to 1:12.3 in final one.

- That is about 4-5 seconds from being competitive, on very old tyres, no work on setup, with wrong gear ratios, first time in the car, and taking it easy at Quarry Corner.  I could have got another 1.5 seconds out at least had the car worked all afternoon, maybe 1.5 more on tyres and gearing. My race craft won't be up to much at first, but outright pace i don't think will be too far off... i hope!

So - overall, positive.  But bloody expensive.

First race April 23rd - Silverstone.

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Aiming to collect all post-war Le Mans winners in scale 1:18. Even the gaps!

#58 OFFLINE   Mizen

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 04:09 PM

https://www.dropbox.... 08 58.mov?dl=0

Video shot by my sister .... At least 2 meters of exit at camp corner that could have been used there .... But about 5 meters of grass and then a wall if you use too much (and a 100mph+ impact); must try harder :)

Edited by Mizen, 27 March 2016 - 01:37 AM.

Aiming to collect all post-war Le Mans winners in scale 1:18. Even the gaps!

#59 ONLINE   StratosWRC

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 04:16 PM

living the dream man
I mod stuff

Wes

#60 OFFLINE   CreepyVanMan

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 09:11 PM

^ ^ Indeed! I hope to be you one day when I get settled. Living it up man! Awesome read up, and I'm totally looking forward to more updates. Stay safe homie!
"I used to play sports. Then I realized you can buy trophies. Now I am good at everything." -Demetri Martin

#61 OFFLINE   Mizen

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Posted 27 March 2016 - 01:35 AM

Thanks Stratos and CVM.... I think whatever stage of life you go for it, it means "sacrifice" in some shape or form. The way motorsport burns serious chunks of cash is pretty frightening !
Aiming to collect all post-war Le Mans winners in scale 1:18. Even the gaps!

#62 OFFLINE   Uzair

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Posted 29 March 2016 - 06:59 PM

View PostMizen, on 26 March 2016 - 04:09 PM, said:

https://www.dropbox.... 08 58.mov?dl=0

Video shot by my sister .... At least 2 meters of exit at camp corner that could have been used there .... But about 5 meters of grass and then a wall if you use too much (and a 100mph+ impact); must try harder :)

Hi Mizen. I'm late catching up with the update on your first outing, but it was a fun read! Congrats on your first ride out, and I am not surprised at the problems, racing is not just an expensive hobby/business but a highly complicated one too. Impressive laptimes, I think you would do well in the races.

And the video really shows the pace of the car out of the corner. Yeah you could use another meter or so of the track (looks to me like 1.5m to the edge, not 2m), but you can also see the tyre tracks in the grass right next to the barrier where someone had gone off, and which as you point out you definitely wouldn't want to do. That would instantly inflate your operational costs 10X compared to the normal tyres etc costs :)

Stay safe brother, and have fun!
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#63 OFFLINE   g3org3y

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Posted 31 March 2016 - 03:27 PM

Wow, this is great. Thanks for sharing. :10: :eusa_clap:
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#64 OFFLINE   Mizen

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Posted 14 April 2016 - 04:13 PM

Quick update - 1 week to go, and a few last minute panics. All the yellow "extra bits" (dive panes, brake vents, air duct) are being spruced up and hydro-dipped in carbon fibre by "my sponsor" *, and the car is at 3sixtywraps.co.uk for coversion into the Martini-Alfa Romeo design a few posts back. All running behind schedule - supposed to be done today, but instead due Monday.  Annoying as i have a trip to Silverstone on Saturday planned and was going to get new (legal!) seatbelts fitted, but now will just have to make do with buying seatbelts instead, and watching WEC qualify and ELMS race. Could be worse! :) The cost of the seatbelts is mitigated by handily winning a competition to set fasted time on GPRs simulator - and getting £250 vouchers (Uzair - the same simulator that sparked our many emails).

Schedule for the first race is:
Friday testing
SIgn on and scrutineering (scary!) 15:00 Saturday. Qualify 16:35.
Race 1 10:25 Sunday, Race 2 15:30.

Come along and say hello if you're nearby...


* my "sponsor" being a mate with a car detail and hydro dip business. He dips bits for free and gives the 1M a wash every now and then, I put his name on the car. Not exactly Marlboro, but it's a start....
Aiming to collect all post-war Le Mans winners in scale 1:18. Even the gaps!

#65 OFFLINE   Mizen

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Posted 14 April 2016 - 04:19 PM

.... and one other point, of the entry list of 38 cars, there are 3 National B licence holders (i.e. <6 races, or most likely rookies), and 2 of those are in the Pinto cars which are 10 seconds a lap or so slower.  I am the only rookie in Class A...... scary!!
Aiming to collect all post-war Le Mans winners in scale 1:18. Even the gaps!

#66 OFFLINE   Uzair

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Posted 14 April 2016 - 10:41 PM

Nice update Mizen :) Great job with being the only rookie in Class A - it looks like you are on track to become a winner soon :hope:
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#67 OFFLINE   CreepyVanMan

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Posted 15 April 2016 - 12:01 AM

Have a blast and I'm sure I'm not the only one eager for another update!
"I used to play sports. Then I realized you can buy trophies. Now I am good at everything." -Demetri Martin

#68 OFFLINE   Mizen

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Posted 17 April 2016 - 05:00 AM

2016 livery teaser shot

(well, if Audi and Toyota can do it....!)

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Aiming to collect all post-war Le Mans winners in scale 1:18. Even the gaps!

#69 OFFLINE   Uzair

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Posted 17 April 2016 - 06:09 AM

LOL Mizen that's TOO good :) I hope you can get to keep it and Martini don't come after you. Have you had a talk with a copyright lawyer?
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#70 OFFLINE   brambo009

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Posted 17 April 2016 - 06:22 AM

That's awesome :occasion14:  looking forward to seeing more.
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#71 OFFLINE   Mizen

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Posted 18 April 2016 - 05:08 PM

Uzair - there are loads of cars in club motorsport running Gulf or Martini colours with no hassle, they're both pretty lax about it.  

Changing logos is slightly dodgy, but have a good mate who is a corporate lawyer - he reckons worst case a cease and desist order, and change it to Martini... I know of a pro racecar that carries the stripes and the logo and doesn't receive a penny, just does it because it looks cool and they agreed!  I would hope should anyone from Martini see the car (or be reading!) they would treat it in good humor...

just going to pop this one here....

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Edited by Mizen, 18 April 2016 - 05:13 PM.

Aiming to collect all post-war Le Mans winners in scale 1:18. Even the gaps!

#72 OFFLINE   jerruno93

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Posted 18 April 2016 - 06:58 PM

Been seeing this thread for a bit. Congrats man!! Im really happy for you that you are living the dream. Ive been karting for almost ten years now and one day I want to make the change to cars. Glad to see someone was able to do it!

#73 OFFLINE   Uzair

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Posted 18 April 2016 - 07:59 PM

View PostMizen, on 18 April 2016 - 05:08 PM, said:

Uzair - there are loads of cars in club motorsport running Gulf or Martini colours with no hassle, they're both pretty lax about it.  

Changing logos is slightly dodgy, but have a good mate who is a corporate lawyer - he reckons worst case a cease and desist order, and change it to Martini... I know of a pro racecar that carries the stripes and the logo and doesn't receive a penny, just does it because it looks cool and they agreed!  I would hope should anyone from Martini see the car (or be reading!) they would treat it in good humor...

Wow - respect to Martini and Gulf! I know a fair number of companies who would throw a hissy fit if amateurs were to use their branding without permission and fees. And they even allow a pro to use their full branding! Really cool guys indeed, and they probably recognize they are getting free marketing via these passionate fans.

Since we are both sim racers (well, I'm not a serious one yet), I must compare this with the total clampdown by FOM on F1 mods for rFactor, Assetto Corsa, etc. The mod-makers don't receive a penny, they do it for love of the sport and the mods are enjoyed by longtime F1 enthusiasts such as myself, and yet the powers-that-be want to completely control fan-made content and restrict our level of passion and enjoyment, which comes at no cost to them. I hate the post-2013 F1 anyway, and things like these make me hate its owners even more.
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#74 OFFLINE   Mizen

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Posted 24 April 2016 - 03:41 PM

Full write up to follow,  very quick summary is:

1. Two races, two finishes, two signatures, no damage,
2.  Pace - when settled, and confident in the tyres was OK. Keeping up with the bulk of the class As.
3. Except they were miles up the road as starting on a damp track toward rear of a 40 car grid is.. hard!

22nd in final race, 38 cars entered weekend.  Trust me - sim racing, and track days are NOTHING like racing 40 experience drivers. This is going to take several years to get good at -  so guess I'm in for several years then! :)

Uzair- peak lat G was 1.738.  Convincing brain that car can do that despite everything telling you "THAT IS NOT POSSIBLE" is where the next 2 seconds come from..!! :)

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https://www.youtube....h?v=SF8XcKEMZV0
Aiming to collect all post-war Le Mans winners in scale 1:18. Even the gaps!

#75 OFFLINE   joeyo387

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Posted 25 April 2016 - 02:40 PM

Wow I Just discovered this thread! As many people have said, this is inspiring me to start with Karts, hopefully get a track day car when I have some cash, and maybe someday do something like this when I have lots of cash...
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