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AutoArt's explanation

12K views 77 replies 26 participants last post by  Ham  
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
I just got this letter from AutoArt...

Explaining the reason of the existence of the Sealed body in their Motorsport line and why they are so expensive for less details such as engine and sealed doors...

Still I don't approve.... does it make sense?....

AUTOART MOTORSPORT SERIES

Our 1:18 Motorsport series, with sealed body panels, raised a lot of queries among the collectors why we are making die cast model cars with no engine, no opening of doors and bonnets but still demanding the same selling price.

Many top racing teams, such as Formula One, WRC and Super GT racing cars, would not allow picture to be taken or conducting any research of the car's interior by model makers due to the team's unique design of their suspension setup and engine arrangement which are their closely guarded secret among their competitors. Because of this, there are no modern Formula One die cast models that are made with engine, even if they do, it is being made with assumption from limited sourcing of pictures of the press and magazine. The dimension will never be accurate and many small details are also incorrectly replicated. We have seen model makers even placed a standard engine into a WRC rally car just to have the model launched into the market that has an engine inside. This is the primary reason for the introduction of Motorsport series offering modern racing model cars with no engine and opening and emphasizing the exterior features rather than the interior. It is meaningless to replicate an incorrect engine in a model just for the sake that the model should have an engine. For model collectors, the most important thing for a die cast model car is to have the body shape replicated as closely as possible to the real car. Interior, such as engine and boot, is secondary. Unlike classic racing cars of which the engines expose all the ram pipes, wiring harnesses and small parts that become nice features on a die cast model car, modern racing car engines are mostly covered with large air intake boxes with little engine detail to review which can hardly be a nice feature in a model car. As a matter of fact, when collectors bought a model car, he or she would open the bonnets or doors once or twice and the rest of the time the model is being displayed with the doors and bonnets closed. Most upmarket 1:43 scale are made with no opening of doors and bonnets, collectors are willing to spend much more money for a well made 1:43 rather than a mass market toy quality 1:18 despite opening of doors and bonnets.

Another reason we are making the subject under Motorsport series is when the car makers or racing teams insisted the die cast model cars must be launched within the same year that the actual cars are still racing, only a model without opening will be possible to realize the project of which the development requires only seven months instead of ten months for model with full openings.

Making the model car without opening of doors and bonnets will save around 10 to 15% of the production cost. However, Motorsport series consist of many special features not seen in previous model making of which the production cost can be 20 to 30% more expansive than our "Racing" series with openings. Therefore, it is not a cost saving approach for introducing Motorsport series without opening.

Modern racing cars are getting more complicated in their shape with a lot of vents, slots, fins, cooling ducts and aerodynamic aids; it is a huge challenge to replicate these features in die cast model making which are 18 times smaller in scale due to the limitation of the injection and casting technology. In order to replicate these features in our Motorsport series closest to the real racing car, a lot of works have to be done manually, such as the opening of the small slots and vents on metal bonnets and fenders using trimming machine painstakingly trimmed away the zinc metal bit by bit in order to make them become through holes. Some racing models require more than 20 areas of such time consuming and labor intensive trimming process which are not found in die cast model retailing for less than a hundred Dollars.

The stance of a racing car is all about ride height, fender flare and clearance of the tires as compared to a standard street car. Replicating the correct ride height and fender clearance of a modern racing car is one of the main challenges for a die cast model maker. Zinc metal casting technology limits the thickness of the fender to a minimum of 1mm, which in real car term, is 18mm under the scale of 1:18. The actual racing car fender is less than 1mm in thickness and the rubber tires are so close to the fenders that they are almost touching each other, in order to make the same appearance on a model car, the metal fender lips have to be trimmed by machine manually to make it as thin as possible so that the rubber tires can be fitted closest to the fenders. This feature can never be achieved in mass market product which the selling price limits the amount of manual work on trimming and polishing.

To achieve the racing livery with sharp and shinny colors, tampon printing is used in Motorsports series. Racing cars with complicated multi colors livery require over two hundreds hits of tampon print because each hit can only consist of one color on one spot not more than two inches in size. Many model makers would use a much simpler cost saving method by applying water transfer color decals to avoid tampon printing. The problem with decal is that the color is dull, it will have a border and it may get damaged or cracked easily. If a clear coating is applied on the decal, the layer is too thick which will blur the fine detail of the body lines.

All the panels, edges and splitting lines are manually polished and filed to the best possible surface fineness. After applying the paint, the surface has to be buffed by wax so that the painting finish is exceptionally smooth and shinny as compared to many other die cast model available in the market. The process is in fact very similar to the making of real car.

Photo etching metal pieces are being used for delicate parts that cannot be replicated by injection plastic/metal such as mesh grill, tow hook and latches. The photo etching metal pieces will give a realistic shape in the scale but they are expansive to produce which will greatly affect the production cost and therefore no mass market product will implement this feature. Motorsport series apply photo etching metal pieces in many areas in order to give the model a realistic feel.

Wheels and brakes are the features that Motorsport series emphasis most. The brake disc rotors are made of photo etching metal, piece by piece placing on a rotating platform and manually sanded to achieve a hairline texture in order to simulate the braking surface found in the real world. Autoart is producing real wheels for use in racing and street, there are wheel experts in the factory responsible for the development of the model car's wheels and they are being replicated in the best possible scale, contour and finishing.

In short, Motorsport series has elevated the quality standard of racing die cast models within a retail price of a hundred dollars despite the facts that the basic labor cost in China has been increased more than 40% plus the material cost, such as zinc metal, paint and solvent have all been increased more than double in the last two years.


So..... :what ..... :feedback ...as I am sure they'll be many :giggle
 
G
#2 · (Edited)
I don't really know how the casting of zinc metal works, but I do know that labor in China has increased dramatically. With such a boost in industrialization, if one company doesn't provide adequate working conditions and wages, workers can simply walk down the road and work for another company. But does AUTOart really give that much detail and attention to each sealed model as they so illustrated?

But every time I see a sealed AUTOart model I would love to own, I go through this dilemma, in which rationality always loses in the end.
 
#3 ·
First off, all it is a little :deadhorse do we need to do it again? :confused

Second, if you believe the hog wash about the secrecy, I got some New York Bidges and Florida realstate I would like to sell you :giggle

Third, it the raw materials have gone up that much, they why do we still have the same price on Maisto, Ertls, Yatming and Wellys?

My first and last post on this topic.
 
#5 ·
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Hey ...

I'm just sharing the info I got with the others as for the first time now, the explanation comes from the manufacturer and are not only speculations from one another...

I just thought it would answer some people's questions....

If you're not interested, don't read it....
 
#4 ·
That was obviously a well-desinged response by AUTOart that is likely their "generic" response to what has surely been a lot of questions. It seems to be created for a single purpose: to placate collectors.
 
G
#6 ·
You know what...

I know we have been through this a million of times and each time we go through it once again, it gets that much more intense.

So what I am about to say - I hope no one is offended.

First of all - AUTOart and every other company is in the model car making business - no one wants to hear about how hard it is to replicate a model. If they can't do their chosen prefession, they need to pack it up and go home.

I don't want to hear how hard it is to do something they have been doing for years.

Jeff, the repsonse in that letter was written as they knew it was going to be published for others to see - therefore, I can understand the comprehensive clarification of them explaining their position on the models.

With that said - it pisses me off to see them alledge other companies are producing models with inaccurate details :whatline

Where the heck did that come from. :confused

We are talking about AUTOart, the same AUTOart that used decals for a fog lights?

Is this the same AUTOart, that can't distinguish a GT3 R from a GT3 RS from a Cup Car?

The same AUTOart that can't spell Mercedes correct?

The same AUTOart that can't even race numbers correct?

But they are talking about what other companies producing inaccurate models? :confused

The sealed models were never a big deal for me as they are what they are. But accuracy is a entire different story.

And to hear them comment on accuracy - and the past year and half they have been carrying budget companies jock straps in that department is just simply assinine.

I think the days of companies saying one thing and collectors fallen over themselve wetting their pants while humping these guys legs are over - I do believe we are getting smarter than that.

If AUTOart is being told that they cannot photograph a cars engine and suspension set up - then they need to do like collectors do -search Google and they will find all of the pics and information they need.

I better cut this short before I say something that will be very inappropriate.
 
#9 · (Edited by Moderator)
Jeff, first off, thank you for posting AUTOart's reply as I appreciate you are trying to help the community gain more understanding to the industry.

As for the secrecy of the motorsports teams, I'll provide a rebuttal through these pictures that I easily found off the internet. Their presence contradicts AUTOart's claim.

(photos courtesy of Chris Ostberg. And these are of the 2005 M3 GTR, not even the 2004 one that AUTOart released. So where's the secrecy issue?)




I've seen photos of Corvette Racing's C6-Rs as well.

As for the release of the cars within the same year, are we not in 2006 and those C6-Rs are from 2005? Just whose racecars are being released in the same calendar to which it raced?? I smell a dead rotten fish.
 

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#38 · (Edited by Moderator)
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I agree with that, almost every auto maker has high-resolution pictures of their racing and production engine on their media sites. For example, BMW even goes to show the engineers in the process of putting a race engine together. (Pic on bottom) The pic is of the 2006 320si WTCC race car engine, I believe AUTOart will release the 2005 model. Now, I don't think BMW is making the engine a secret, and a company like AUTOart would have no problem getting these pictures from BMW.

 
#10 ·
That's just pure BS! :pullhair On the surface, their reasoning makes perfect sense, but I'm left with more questions than answers

1) Regarding the "team secrecy" issue. How does this expain their sealed M3 GTR when the fully opening Minichamps has been on the market for 3(?) years?

2) Same issue as above. I understand the Caddy CTS-V has a nicely detailed interior, so why is the cabin sealed? Are the door latches the secret part?

3)Regarding "quickness to market". Hasn't the C6-R been on the track over a year now? And the model is just now hitting the shelves?

I know these questions have been asked before, and I know there will never be a satifactory answer, but this sealed model deal just gets me worked up. Let me stop this rant before it gets started.
 
#12 · (Edited by Moderator)
Bottom line here as I see it, that email (which is undoubtedly generic) is nothing more than company spin, designed specifically as a reply to all the negative feedback they have been receiving. Unfortunately, their arguments simply do not hold water, except for those who are looking for a reason to "forgive" AUTOart.
 
G
#13 ·
To be honest, I think we are well beyond the point of proving them they are wrong about pictures not being readily available or cars not being accessible.

We see tons of photos posted everywhere online - is that to call AUTOart a liar - well thats up to you - personally I won't, they are doing a good job of proving what they are without me saying anything along those lines.
 
#14 · (Edited by Moderator)
Instead of just whining and complaining.... :confused just stop buying AUTOart from now on! If everyone thinks this way eventually they will have to deal with the problem instead of giving complex, purpose driven answers.

I have only one sealed AUTOart, and that's the JGTC Skyline. I like Skylines so I had to buy it since it's liveryfree.
I will not buy any more of them because I want to make a stand. I go to Minichamps with my money. :cheers
 
#17 ·
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Now THAT is making a difference. In 2006, I have only bought one AUTOart but have bought seven 1:43s. For what it's worth, none of those 1:43s are cheaper than a sealed 1:18. So if AUTOart really wants to get more of my diecast money, they need to revisit their approach to 1:18 race cars.
 
G
#15 ·
Thorst,

I agree - which is why I own one less than you - absolutely zero.

But the point of the matter is not buying them is not the answer. Truly it isn't.

Why, because those who do want and enjoy them will lose out - and there are a few of those who do want them.
 
#16 · (Edited by Moderator)
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Yup, we agree on that one. :cheers But my point is a little more far fetched. The ones that wants to buy them should definately do so, but the ones (like me) who don't like to pay full retail for a sealed model should stay away. This WILL hurt their sales and let's face it....hurting their sales is the only factor that would make them think twice.
I will gladly buy a sealed model for a pricetag of about half of what theyre charging nowadays.
 
G
#19 ·
Apparently I am in the minority owning about 6 sealed AUTOart's...I absolutley LOVE all of them. I would have to agree with AUTOart on the fact that I buy my car, open the hood/doors once and I never do again!! As for the cost and secrecy, I cant say bc I really have no idea but I know im not going to stop buying their cars because they look great and they make what I want!!
 
#20 ·
I'm in development, so I understand some of the challenges a model manufacture may face. Just looking at the final product, a consumer may never fully understand what goes behind the scene. As far as getting the data needed to replicate an engine, I don't think few random pics found on the net will do the job (espceially when accuracy is critical).

I think the main question regarding the whole sealed model line up is, why is AUTOart the only company doing it in the 1/18 scale. We compare models from Minichamps and think why can Minichamps release models with full openning features when AUTOart can't? They both make their models in China and face the same industry challenges.
 
#21 · (Edited by Moderator)
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I know for sure, I don't know 90% of the diecast manufacturing process so I try not to venture off in commenting too far beyond what I have knowledge on. Also, I just want to clarify my purpose on the M3 GTR photos. It was meant to suggest that they could be used by a model maker to reproduce a scale engine. Clearly more information is required. All I was merely questioning was whether or not the issue of secrecy is as big an issue as I am reading it to be in AUTOart's e-mail.

I'll also point out that I have 5 sealed models. I managed to get 4 of them for what I thought was a good price and got decent value for my money.
 
#24 ·
I think it's great to see us collectors discussing the reply from the manufacturer. If that is the manufacturer's stance on the production of their cars, that's the companies own business decision to make. Will us discussing it here have an effect on the company, probably not. I recommend that those of you who would like to see them take the extra step, contact the company. Not with threats or with an angry tone - but to simply provide the company feedback as to what will make their models more desirable, thus more likely to make it into your collection.

Politicians lobby in Washington, where their voice is heard by those that can make a change. Bottom line - we need to ensure that our voices are heard by the die cast manufacturers. If this is something that you feel needs to change, I urge you to take action. If you don't, all that there will be is a discussion on our forum.

Sean
 
G
#26 ·
Matt,

I understand your point about consumers knowing the entricate details as it relates to production.

But honestly, are we suppose to ?

Lets put this into real terms and move away from the diecasts for a moment. Does anyone know every detail about the production of their car, their television, CD player, microwave, cable service and any other thing they may or may not depend on daily?

Nope, but I am sure if something went wrong with either of those things - it would certainly be an issue worth looking into and no excuses would be made for the manufacturer.

So why is it do we make excuses for these model car companies when they drop a turd in our laps and don't do the same for equally important things as it relates to us?
 
G
#27 ·
There sooooooo much that can be added to this topic about this entire ordeal.

Allow me to scratch the surface.

As long as we as collectors continue to provide these companies free passes - we will continue to recieve the garbage in and garbage out.

When you have a start up online magazines that is suppose to represent collectors being nice companies and disregarding the obvious to further their cause - theres definitely a problem - a big freaking problem.

This is why I have very little respect for some people who proclaim to be for the collectors.

Yes I am disgusted right about now.
 
#28 ·
I was going to dissect AUTOart's little letter, but what's the point? I don't know what insults me more, that they lie to their customers, or that they expect consumers to believe those lies. . .
 
#29 ·
Is it just me or does that letter sound suspiciously like the line The AUTOart representative that used to hang out here (Denis I think?) tried to feed us? If AUTOart just told the truth and said "We're want to make more money so we're giving you less but charging you more" it would be bad enough, but to insult our intelligence like this...it really shows what they think of their customers.
 
#30 ·
I understand how the whole labor wages have increased, production cost isn't that much less, blah blah blah.

But saying that they can't get pictures and info about the cars is a plain lie to the face when members here have proved that a few minutes with Google will provide this.

Also, race teams demand the model be released in same season of competing? How is this possible?

Recent releases:

Honda NSX JGTC Takata Dome - 2003
Corvette C6R - 2005

It is now 2006, and the Corvette's are just barely starting to arrive, and that NSX is from 2003 season and it just comes out now. Now granted, say the NSX is an exception and that they only started on it last year.

But the C6R is coming out basically 1 year after Le Mans 2005, and last year ended 5 months ago. The Viper Competition Coupe, I have not seen this for sale and it's a 2003 car, not 2005. And the Aston DBR9 (2005) is nowhere to be seen, I haven't heard of it in months.

Teams are demanding to be released in same season? Yea right.. maybe they are, but clearly AUTOart hasn't really done this.
 
#31 ·
I just read this same press release over on Forum18 (diecast.org). There were only 2 responses and they both thanked AUTOart for their explanation!
Naturally, I had to leave my opinion which was not quite so appreciative.
I invite you to do so also.
Regardless of the merits of the sealed/unsealed debate, I am amazed that people have so little skeptiszm as to blindly accept without any question the lame excuses offered by AUTOart in this statement.
If the 2 responders are not yet leg-humpers, they have certainly submitted their applications! :cheers
 
#32 ·
Hmm, I just noticed something. This is a little off topic, but since these threads always go OT, I think this is a fine place to put it.
People have been focusing on AUTOart's recent slip-ups in accuracy as of late. I see quite a double standard here, as I never see any comments regarding other mfrs. and their accuracy issues. Remember the Kyosho Mercedes dealer editions with the fat 4x4 tires and asymmetrical bodies which hardly resemble the real cars? Never saw many complaints about those models and their accuracy (or lack thereof). And what about the Minichamps DE M-class and R-class? No complaints there.
Now, I have absolutely no problem with people voicing concerns regarding model accuracy. I think that such opinions are worth listening to. And I would like to point out that I am not an AUTOart "leg humper". If AUTOart makes a model that I know is wrong in some way, I will take them to task for it, as anybody would. But I would do the same to any manufacturer, and it is this I think that some here aren't doing fairly.
This is why I brought up the Kyosho MBs. When AUTOart released their DE S-class a while back, they got a lot of flak for it (too expensive, no carpet, only the front doors open, etc.), and that is quite understandable. What I don't understand is why didn't Kyosho get that same amount of vitriol about their DEs? They were just as expensive, had the same lack of detail and opening features, and to top it off they hardly looked like the cars on which they are modeled - at least the S-class looked like the real thing. The only thing I can think of is that AUTOart made a controversial move with its product line, where Kyosho did not. The upshot of this was that collectors thought, "how dare they insult us like this? We'll show them..." and proceeded to pick on AUTOart on these issues while conveniently ignoring similar problems with other manufacturers. This is the problem I am seeing in this whole situation.

Alright, my rant is over. *Phew!*

Nick
 
#33 ·
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Hi Nick.
Thanks for your thoughts on this.
I will try to give my thoughts on the points you brought up....

I think that, as you say, every company should be held to the same standard.
One should not get a free pass where another gets ripped a new one for the same offense.
Obviously, AUTOart is the biggest target. They are the 800 pound gorilla in diecast.
I will freely admit, I have no idea about the Kyosho and M/C examples that you mentioned. If i didn't read about them here, I wouldn't know about it.
Did you make a post about the innacuracies? I must have missed it, my apologies but the current model year sedans and such are not one of my collecting interests.
I just don't know very much about them.

AUTOart seems to gather more attention because of the many different types of cars it makes. They have something for everyone so more people are watching their products and talking about them. I have seen (and done so myself) M/C taken to task for some of their continued mistakes and poor manufacturing choices. Kyosho just doesn't seem to get the attention across the board, I myself have less then 5 Kyo products out of a collection that numbers in the 100's.

Believe me, no one wants AUTOart to right their ship more than myself and the others that are compaining the loudest. They used to make awesome product that delivered more then expected including great value. Sadly that is not the case anymore and the email that they are floating around is a perfect example. I could just imagine my customers response if I were to put out a such a totally lame, BS. letter explaining why I can't do a good job. :eek:mg
My gosh! This one ranks right up there with "the check is in the mail" Its a total crock and an insult to their customers.

If I want to be lied to in this fashion I would dump my wife and get a 19 year old girlfriend and actually believe it when she tells me how sexy I look, either way the end result is the same, the 19 year old G/F and AUTOart would be doing the same thing to me. :wink
 
#34 ·
1.Yeah, I reckon AUTOart is essentially a good diecast company, the have an excellent range of different vehicles on offer and for the most part these vehicles are good models. However, I do think that it is a bit much to charge ÂŁ50 for a sealed model. Ok if they cant get the engines then seal the engine bay but at least lets have the doors open, afterall they model the interior so they might as well make the doors open. This does seem like blatant cost cutting without actually reducing the price for the customers.

2.They originally said that the sealed models would be cheaper and cited reasons such as greater speed of production for producing them. Now suddenly they have a whole load of different reasons, seems fishy.

3.I think I'd always choose an opening model over a sealed one except maybe where the opening model was significantly less detailed and accurate. For example the Minichamps BMW M3 GTR is infinitely preferable to the sealed Autoart M3 GTR in my opinion. This is despite the fact that the Autoart has superior exterior detailing, as the Minichamps is still very competent. Therefore were I to buy this car I would, and I feel most would, choose minichamps over Autoart in this scenario. Thus Autoarts superior detailing does them few favours here.

4.I just wondered if given the choice between these two cars, given they retail at the same price, how many people would go for the sealed model?
 
#36 ·
First off, I can't hope to reply to everything I just read, though a good read it was, and infinitely better than just a list of acceptances of the explanation. Therefore I will just give my own opinion, which is very similar to the majority here I think.

At first glance, at least some of the reasons AUTOart give are feasible, and I was tempted to feel that people were dismissing them purely because AUTOart are less than popular right now. However, having read all the replies a second time on a new day, it does seem like a list of lame and rather unfounded excuses.

I think one of the most valid points made was that most other brands have not felt the need to take the sealed route, which instantly begs the question as to why they have not faced the same problems as AUTOart claims to. Although before someone else says it I do realise that of a lot of the modern race car releases I can think of a majority are AUTOart releases.

However, I am less than convinced by their argument, and I can sleep reasonably easy in the knowledge that they have produced models which, had they not been sealed may well have been in my collection and lining their pockets by now, but instead I would not consider buying. Yes I own one, but the point I'm making is that I would have paid more money to AUTOart had they not made so many models as sealed.
One can only hope that if enough people do the same it mat eventually have some effect.