You mean RRP?

Well, if a car is re-released, I think the re-release should not be more than the original. It should also differ in some way.

An example from my area: The Minichamps Rossi 2001 Mugello bike. £150+ on ebay. They've made a 'dirty' version as a re-release. The original bike should still hold it's value, as it's a clean version, so both parties should be happy. Same with the Rossi 2000 bike. £300+ on the second hand market. The re-release, at normal RRP, is the bike repliced for the first race Rossi scored points on it. Thus, the original bike is different, and will still hold value.

Re-releasing the same model, after a 'limited' or 'special' run isn't really on. I'd feel pretty damn cheated if I'd paid a lot of money for a 'limited' edition, for a company to increase that edition.

I guess if originals are still left, they will sell them at RRP, as that's what it's there for. Second hand market, otoh, will dictate much different prices.

 

Here its MSRP - but I guess its the same animal all the same.

My question was more towards do you feel the price of the original model be lowered?

 

No. Why should it be?

If a company re-release X, then they can re-release it at whatever price they want. I think it's unfair on buyers of the original release, however, to see the price they paid on the original release reduced because of the new re-release.

I doubt you'd make many fans doing that.

Do companies in the diecast market do that?

 

Of course diecast companies have done it, I listed the Kwan Porsche from AUTOart as an example. In that example, the original is still selling for good money.

The diecast market is the only market that I know of that frowns upon this.

Pretty much in every other industry, this is common.

Ever get a good deal on that DVD player because the newer version was just released. Same with cars, when the upcoming model year is released, dealers offer major rebates on the outgoing year.

This really wasn't the road the question was meant to go down, but since it did - why shouldn't they be discounted.

Thanks for adding food for thought :lol

 

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While this is certainly true, industries such as DVD manufacturing probably should be considered separately from diecast cars, as the latter would be seen as a collectible (compared to a DVD player, which would just be a consumer item). Not saying there is no logic to the argument, but I would venture guess that similar economic elements would be in play with other "collectibles" as well.

 

No doubt about them being different industries. I just used that as a comparison, same as with the automobiles.

Diecasts being collectables is similar to a person who has a collection of DVD's, albeit, both provide enjoyment in a different manner.

I really wonder why this diecast industry is soooooooooooo different from so many other industries.

 

I imagine that in the case of consumer items like the DVD player, companies lower the price on an older model just to shift it. They simply want to attract a buyer who is not too worried about exactly what DVD player they are getting, and are just happy to pick one up relatively cheaply.

Diecast is different. Apart from a few casual collectors who pick up Hot Wheels in their supermarket, we are fairly well informed, we know what we want, and if a product is sought after, I guess the companies would be daft to reduce the price. It takes a buyer and a seller to make a market. Just because a model is re-released or a SE comes out, doesn't mean that the companies will struggle to shift the old one at the same price.

 

I feel that's why there is not price decrease on some such as the Kwan, I do know what you mean when you said DVD, as this hobby is classed at collectible & that word is used on some DVD's, "collectors edition" DVD's & it's them milking the money out of a movie, yes it does sound familiar, company's milk moulds of most cars.

Darrick I say YES to your question, as I want to spend less on some cars & it would make me ad some I will not buy due to saving money where I can & buying what I can afford.
But retailers will not drop prices on cars that sell fast, even tho they do save on re-releases as its a few minor changes to it & it is pumping out more of the same car, so they bring out a similar car to keep the money coming in until we get what we all know a FLOOD.

This is sure a funny industry & one I have a hard time trying to figure out.

But I do know is us collectors keep buying them, even tho a 2000 LE in one colour is also a 2000 LE in another 3 or 4 colours of 2000.

 

I really don't think the diecast hobby is much different from any other - things are just acted out in a different manner.

Take GMP for instance, they released their Mustang LX Convertible not too long ago with a retail price of $90+.

Now if you join their members club for $25 you get the same exact car with your membership plus shipping. Somone please correct me on the details if I missed any.

In this particular case, yes/no they are driving the pices down on their own product and consumers are taking advantage of it. Just like any other industry.

And being GMP has mastered the technique of reusing molds, the next Mustang off this mold will be just as hot.

Imagine how those who paid full retail for this car a few months ago must feel - I would say not too good.

But just like every other industry - its the nature of the beast.

Is this hobby an exception to that rule?

 

I understand their frustration, but I don't feel too sorry for anybody who pays a premium for a "limited edition" model only to find it's not limited a year or two later. If they paid more than MSRP for it just because of it's (real or artificial) rarity they've made a concious decision to overpay. If they paid an inflated MSRP because it's a supposedly limited run, once again nobody forced them to, and unless they have proof that the manufacturer destroyed the molds, they should expect them to be re-used somewhere down the line. If a manufacturer promises one of it's products will never be duplicated exactly and then it does, that's fraud, and we have laws to deal with that, but otherwise the buyer should expect anything.

Basically what I'm trying to say is this is just like anything else in a capitalist system...the market sets the price. If the consumer thinks it's too high, all he has to do is say no. If he says yes and is unhappy with his decision a year later, well, maybe he shouldn't have said yes.

 

Great post John.

Buyers do make a concious decision to buy - even if the price is based on an alledged rarity or LE.

And I think a lot of manufacturers know collectors will buy without questions being asked. I think this is separates this hobby from any other industry.

I have yet to figure the hobby out in this regards.

But as I originally asked the question - I can see both sides of the argument.

But looking at it from a realistic point of view -just like any other market I spend my money in - I am more of the notion that the price on the original should drop if there is a rerelease.

This topic seems to have a few different heads :giggle

 

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Darrick, to stick to that exact question, I don't know that the price should fall for certain. It definitely depends on the situation.

If the re-release is absolutely identical to the original, then the market will surely determine one price give or take a few dollars for that model, be it from the first production run or a latter one. If one of the runs was supposedly limited, that does add something else to the equation, but I wouldn't like to try and understand the effect that it has.

If the re-release is the same basic mold but altered in some way (even just the race number or event in a season), again I think the price need not fall on the original, because collectors will distinguish between the two, and effectively there will be two separate markets, each determining their own price point.

I hope I understood the question at least in part - I don't claim to be a businessman, but what I said makes sense in my mind :cheers

 

Dave,

That makes sense to me - it actually answers the original question. But the topic had a few different questions spring up. All legitimate too.

 

So far, Dave's point is the situation that most makes sense to me. I would expect for the market to behave that exact way, since we're talking about industry-made collectables.

 

I think that the re-release of the limited series is a good thing. At least to those that can't afford the prices that original release are going for. There will be the 'purists' that will only want the original release and will not think twice about paying the premium $ for them even after the re-releases are on the market.

Will this bring down the price of the original release, it most definately will. To those who bought the original release, do you regret spending the big money you spent when you got yours? To you it was a have to have item at the time (and hopefully still is). Sorry to say this but you're going to have to deal with it. It may not be the popular thing to say but that's the facts. This will definately cuase hard feelings with those who buy for later resell value, but that's business. To everyone who doesn't have one of the original releases, you got lucky!

Speaking of business, diecast manufacturers have to capitalize on the market otherwise they would go bankrupt. I can only speculate that the Kwan car (for example) would have a limited buyers market so they only made so many. Now after a huge success, they realize that there is a much bigger calling for the car and now want to produce more since they can do it without losing money on the venture. As much as we'd like them to be more sensitive to collectors feelings, they have a business to run.

It does suck that many of you spent big money for something that you thought was never going to be produced again. But what can you do? The only thing the I can see is that you let the company know your feelings toward the re-release. i don't know what kind of answer you'd get though.

Chalk it up to being in the right hobby at the wrong time??? Wasn't the hunt and the kill worth it? Yeah it would have been nice to save the extra money on what will now be available on every diecast resellers shelves or e-store but you don't the personal satifaction, the story of tracking YOURS down and what YOU went through to get one of the originals! This is something that the re-release buyers will never have!!!

:cheers
Sean

 

I don't think the Kwan ever had a market prior to its release. Can someone confirm or deny if Charles Kwan ever had a model car prior to the AUTOart version :feedback

Just asking some questions about Mr Kwan, not to many people were familiar with him other than a link on the internet.

I think in that instance it was more about AUTOart releasing a LE model of a series that garnered much attention and the rest is history.

I do agree about rereleases opening the market for those who didn't get the chance of ownership the first go round.

 

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Without a doubt in that case. I'm not an encyclopedia about racing, but I'm far from clueless, and I never heard his name before that model. I'm positive it was a hit just because it was a "LE" porker from AUTOart. If Maisto had released it in their GT line I doubt it would had made such a splash.

 

Yeah, the Kwan showed collectors at their "spending" worse. :help

I'm not here to tell anyone why they should collect, but the Kwan revealed that some collect for all the wrong reasons. :my2cents

 

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Darrick, some collectors are more selective about their buyings then others, and to that you also have to factor in the size of each one's budget. For instance, if I had tons of money and shelf space was no problem, I could think of buying the Kwan, as I would have possibly bought the rest of the series. But since my budget and space are very strict, I have to choose well what I will buy. Some collectors don't have those constraints, so they could buy it without remorse later.

 

I don't have an answer to you question, but an oppinion to the subject.

For the health of the hobby, there should not be any LE, but just production runs. Lets say that 2000 sell well, why not make 1000 more and many another 1000 down the road.
At first I did not agree how GMP had done a run of dragsters (forget which one since I don't collect them) They had announced it as an LE of 5000, but it seems that only 2500 were made in the original run and now the other 2500 were going to be made.

How about if the manufacturer says that a maximum of 10,000 would be made, but retain the right to make less. Let's say that 2500 sell fast, than another 2500 are made and sold. If a third 2500 are made and are slow sellers, than the manufacturer stops there and only 7500 of the planned 10000 are made. Nobody loses then.

I have many Ertls that were once HTF and Holy Grails, but have been re-released many times. The original yellow Boss 302 and Cranberry red Chevelle. The Vanishing Point Challenger, the Apollo white GSX are few that come to mind.

I never have collected for profit, so them more the marrier.

If manufacturer had time frames of manufacturing would also help. You know the "at 12:00PM on Dec. 31th that mold will be destroyed and never be available again" (until we make more of them).

 

I don't have much to add to the Kwan part of the debate. I had never heard of him, I don't think that much of the model and I see no reason to buy it any more than any other model.

I do like Al's viewpoint of simply producing a model whilst there is demand for it. For me personally there is little or even no appeal in owning a limited edition model. Very often the only evidence that it is limited will be a little number or plaque, out of view on the underneath of the model or on a box somewhere. That, and a group of collectors across the world who are unhappy because they can't get a model that they would like.

Obviously models cannot be produced forever, and there will always be new collectors who have missed out on a model and have to source it from the used market. But to limit a model from the outset is just a gimmick in my eyes. It just means unhappy collectors who cannot add the models that they like to their collection. I would not wish that on any other collector purely so that I could own a LE model.

 

If it all comes down to how much money someone can throw at a model, that can extend the hobby over.

I want a BBR Enzo, but not enough to spend $300 on it. Doesn't mean I don't have the monies, just means I don't have it for 1 sole model or no model is worth that in my view.

Same goes for the 40th Anniversary Murcielago - is it worth $300. I guess it is if you have the money to throw at it. That doesn't make it worth that price tag - atleast in my mind it doesn't.

If keeping up with the Jones' is about throwing money around - there is no doubt in my mind, there are a lot of people on DX as well as in the hobby who can surpass the Jones' and then some. Fortunately and hopefully this hobby will not become that way.

We all collect for different reasons, some more personal than others and therefore price becomes secondary. I too say each to their own.

I'm not one to tell anyone how to spend their money - but that doesn't make every purchase a good purchase.

 

:iagree & I just spent over a $100us for a model, why?? Because I want to keep up with the Jones? Nope, then why did I spend x amount on a diecast, because its rare & a DE? Nope, then why did I buy it, it was a model I really liked & I wanted as part of my collection, it one car I been wanting for awhile, & what also made my choice into buying it, because it was a model that was not released over here & it was selling locally, but did I help the price of it coming down? No I suspect not.
So I had to make the choice, so what I did was sell off some of my rare cars & got some cash & put back into the car I just got, so I feel it was more like a trade than a buy outright.

Sometimes it can be people getting cars that are not released in there own country & the market for them is different in all parts of the world, I do see this a lot as I'm not in the US, there were people here buying up all the UT Macs at about $60au a pop & selling them on Ebay worldwide & getting $100us, not a bad turn around hey.

How different this hobby can be, but at the same time so similar.

:cheers

 

Well now this topic has had a break, I will ask another question :giggle

Do you think models that are 1-2 years old or perhaps even older should be available a lower price than their original retail price, providing they are not LE or DE or anything that may imply its something other than a standard release?

Simplified: Should a models retail price depreciate on older models?

 

The hobby shop I frequent, has some AUTOart BMW 635 models that have been on the shelf since the time the store opened up, that is since October 2004. Sales tax @ 12.5% has been already paid for all of them. The retail price is around 80$. Every import has to have a price tag stuck on them from the moment it leaves its factory in a foreign country.

Now he cannot sell these models without making a loss since he has already paid the high import duties and sales taxes. It might be a different story here since the market for diecast is a tiny one. Maybe its different Stateside.

Another thing is that since the last two months, prices on Maisto's have been increased by $2 and on Aas by $5. The logic explained to me was that since there were no price hikes for the past many years, they are justified to raise prices. Justificable if their profit margins were low. But when the customer has to pay between 25 & 30$ for a budget model, I begin to doubt how much longer this hobby will sustain itself here. For me, I have got everything I wanted. Now its only for a few releases that I might get from abroad through relatives.

 

Winston,

So are older releases still maintaing their original prices?

 

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Same thing here (mostly).

 

Yes Darrick. Not only are they sold for the same prices, the prices on the new stock (f it ever gets here) is likely to be increased too. The problem is the importer is the sole wholesaler, distributor and retailer. He does sell Maistos and signatures from stores similar to Walmart. The Aas and Kyoshos are limited ony to him and to very select retailers. This monopoly is helping him to price models as he likes. I am hoping there is atleast one more importer to break this chaps stranglehold on the market.

 

I don't think you can say whether a model's price should depreciate or not. A model's price is simply a reflection of how easily obtainable it is and how much it is in demand. With the heavy reliance on ebay by many collectors today, the price is simply determined by just how high people are willing to bid. On that basis it seems only fair that if a store has any of these models they should price them in the same sort of area too. I know that if you can find something like a rare UT model in a store here in the UK they often seem to be priced at the sort of prices they fetch on ebay.

However, if you are only considering a pretty run-of-the-mill model, of which there are plenty about, and which is now no longer on a par with the quality of newer releases, it makes sense that the price will fall. But I still believe that this will, by and large, still be a result of supply and demand.

 

Sounds like supply/demand makes for a models release date.

Thats understandable.

 

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Darrick, supply and demand is certainly my take on it. I know it's a fairly simplistic view but it still figures that in the end the market determines the price. Making a model a LE might mean that the price is higher than average for a model of that quality, but in the end if that's the price that collectors put on the model, then so be it.